Please note that the rigor of examining character for film takes these classic stars in different directions than maybe you are used to seeing. I had actually opened up a separate document for the Hulk at one time because I thought it would be great to explore the dramatic Hulk/Banner Jekyll/Hyde relationship further. If you follow certain logical thinking, the path you can take with the characters will be vastly different than what you have come to expect. So, #51 Iron Man followed by Thor and Hulk along with Captain America comprise the heart of the Avengers team as conceived by Stan and Jack for Marvel.
These original messages featuring Iron Man were written on Tue, 23 Jan 2007.
(This exchange starts after Ben sends a link for the Live Free or Die Hard and Iron Man movies.)
Subject: Re: At the movies...
From: Rick Arthur
To: Ben Alpi
Isn't that the dude from Moonlighting? What is he doing in the Iron Man movie?
Tony Stark is...
Stark Raving Mad!
Stark Raving Exciting!
Stark Raving Sexy!
Rick
PS Watched Silver Lining. NNNNNNNNIIIIIIIIICCCCCCEEEE. Real Nice. Great little character piece.
Coming SOOON to a bus stop near you...
Thought the special effects were well done. Good acting.
Okay now I need 2 more hours worth and we have a feature.
Good job Ben.
Subject: Re: At the movies...
From: Ben Alpi
To: Rick Arthur
Rick,
Haha, now that would be pretty funny - Bruce Willis as Tony Stark. Good tag lines :)
Thanks for watching my film and I'm glad you liked it. I'm trying to figure out where to send it. Being digital, it's still limited as to what fests will take it. I have to choose the first carefully because some fests require (as they do with features) to be the premiere venue. Kinda silly with shorts, but I want to be smart about it. Two more hours? I wish I could afford that :)
I hope all is well with you and the fam!
Rock on,
Ben
Subject: Re: At the movies...
From: Ben Alpi
To: Rick Arthur
Howdy,
I should add that Jon Favreau (Zathura, Elf, Swingers) is directing Iron Man and I think he's a great choice. He's all about using CG sparingly and practical effects as much as possible. That said, Robert Downey, Jr. has been cast as Tony Stark. Err? Yup. Don't ask me, cuz I don't know. If you're going to cast someone who stutters lines, why not just cast Jeff Goldblum? Actually, I think I would like Goldblum better :) They do themselves a disservice casting Downey because even though he is a good actor, the notorious star will eclipse the character. Downey hit the gym to convince producers that he was the man for the job, but fans seem to all be walking with question marks over their heads. This one included. All we can do is hope for the best... And then start over in 10 years like Batman Begins :)
John Carter of Marsis back to square one. Paramount didn't renew their option so, Disney has picked it up. None of the people, including Jon Favreau, have been rehired by Disney. I'm sure they will do a bang up job on it just like Hitchhikers Guide... (rolls eyes) Someone at least brought Frank Frazetta back to do concept art!
We shall see... Happy watchings...
Ben
Subject: Re: Iron Man Part Deux
From: Rick Arthur
To: Ben Alpi
Robert Downey, Jr. is not a bad choice for Iron Man. He is a solid actor and hasn't had the chance to do anything like this before. Think of his manic turn in Natural Born Killers as Wayne Gayle. His acting does seem to be more comedic however. I am more interested in what Favreau will do. What will the script be like? No one thought Michael Keaton was going to be any good as Batman but he did a great job as directed by Tim Burton. I think it just takes a strong hand. Also, since Iron Man is less well known than Batman or Superman, some star power could be required. I don't consider Downey to be a big name however and I think they could have just as easily put a nobody in the roll. Downey won't sell tickets or put butts in the seats. What will sell tickets is if they end up making a tight, stylish superhero drama that runs at breakneck speed, has a good set of trailers and maybe even a catchy tagline. Of course, this could all be spruced up by a rockin' hip hop sound track and some overly choreographed urban dance sequences. Iron Man stomps the Yard...
Keep me informed.
RICK
Subject: Re: Iron Man Part Deux
From: Rick Arthur
To: Ben Alpi
#1 with a bullet. Benicio Del Toro. He would make a GREAT Tony Stark/Iron Man, hands down by far...
Rob Lowe. Looks great in a suit (West Wing) and could handle the dramatic stuff
Liam Neeson. He is in everything now a days, everything.
Michael Imperioli. (Sopranos) Might be tough enough to pull it off. Can be dramatic. Can be funny...
Alright I guess Iron Man ALSO suffers from not having as well defined a mythology. Supermen, Batman, and Spider-man all have it in spades. This makes building a script for him a little more difficult and recalls a fuzzy image in the collective public's mind as to what the character is about. There needs to be some aspect of the story that will translate, that will be over the top so people grab hold of it. In the original comic, Tony Stark is an opportunistic, playboy arms-dealer without a shred of redeeming value until he becomes Iron Man during the height of the Vietnam war. Look for this to be played down, dumbed down or erased altogether to make Tony more sympathetic. Yet, without starting as an ASSHOLE, the event which changes his character will change him little and thereby give little dramatic tension.
What would it take to get a thriller/drama/feel good superhero story about a flawed man overcoming obstacles as an invincible Iron Man made from a few hundred pages of script?
We will probably get the chance to find out. I think it is hit or miss only because if you shy away from showing the flawed man, why should we care about the Man of Iron?
RICK
Oh yeah. Lance Armstrong wins the Tour de France 1 million times.
This isn't a great story (here in the States anyway) until he comes back from cancer and wins (and shacks up with Sheryl Crowe).
Where is Iron Man's story?
Subject: Re: Iron Man Part Deux
From: Ben Alpi
To: Rick Arthur
Rick,
Nice. Del Toro would change the white-guy-ness of Tony, but he would add a whole lotta texture and interest. Maybe George Clooney, but I think it'd have to be shot black-and-white :)
100% agreed. Iron Man suffers from some of the same problems as Green Lantern. People are fuzzy on who he is and even some fans don't know much because of all the different versions of cartoons and such. In the end, it must stand on it's own 2 feet without the preroll Bats, Sups and Spidey got.
I also agree that they may just skip the whole arms dealer thing and just make him a fluffy scientist. This of course violates the core story element of a character needing to change throughout so he/she is not the same person at the end. Episodic stories like Indiana Jones seem to skirt this issue with aplomb, but I have no idea how they get that to work! Perhaps it's because Indy is so accessible, that his stories are black v. white, that there's no shortage of action or that he fights Nazis. Tony has none of that. Tony has demons. Every fan I've heard comment on an Iron Man movie says "I hope they don't ignore his drinking problem." My bro and I thought about how it would be possible to move his arms dealings to to somewhere else. He could get caught up in a Muslim-government crackdown after a tsunami in SE Asia or civil war/genocide in Africa. Perhaps even get caught in something in Iran or elsewhere in the Middle East. Inadvertently sell arms to terrorists or simply get trapped in Iraq. Of course, I don't know if mainstream Hollywood would touch any "hot beds," but it could work and number of contemporary, yet applicable ways. Perhaps Stark Enterprises should start out disliked like Microsoft or EEK! Haliburton. Hey, why don't we get paid to write this stuff?
Very nice to be "conversing" with you :)
Ben
Subject: Puttin a Cap in it
From: Ben Alpi
To: Rick Arthur
Rick,
Talking about writing, my bro and I were talking about a Captain America film the other day. We didn't really know why he hasn't come to the screen yet, except for he's not as popular as Spidey and no one seems to understand the character well enough. With all the huge popularity of WWII-related films, TV and video games, I think it's the perfect time to bring him forward. I was thinking that the film would start with an extended flashback in WWII with Cap "suddenly" appearing on the battlefield and inspiring the soldiers forward. I'd mix his original design suit with the recent re-think design they did. In the same way, he'd be a mix of symbol and "reality" as a super soldier of freedom. I'd have him go on a mini-adventure and establish the Red Skull as der Fuehrer's right hand man (and trounce them!). I'd show the huge regard soldiers held for Cap as well as government leaders and the world's people.
Then, I think I'd hop through his drop in popularity over the years (including major war and political events) up to the present-tense, which is "today." Then the film would be about how his guilt over not having aged and his trouble with a fight that's not black and white anymore. A US government he doesn't trust, American people who have lost sight of what freedom is (wire tapping, federal ID program, RID chips), terrorism, and a world that has stopped talking. Especially since he hasn't aged and he's a social outsider, he's a man stuck in the past and old glories. His home and clothes are all 40-50's motif. Hand-colored photos of his parents sit on the mantel. His dad's easy chair sits before a antique TV. His secret lair walls are like the walls of the main guy's office in Incredibles with old WWII-style posters. His missions are an endless routine that teaches him over and over how closed the world is becoming. I might even give him a black suit for part of the film because the government wants him to do some black ops (and this is a breaking point for him. Like a few years ago, I might put him on the run as an enemy of the State). And the film wouldn't be about his biceps and how far he can throw his shield, but about how he was once the beacon of America and now he must grow up, accept who he is and find what he must do to save freedom. In the process, the film would show us how incredible a super soldier's physical feats are without making him into Superman (Like in the upcoming Fantastic Four 2 film, Silver Surfer is now T-2000. Wasn't the Power Cosmic enough of a super power?!). And how much heart and honor are a part of Captain America.
May I have my $100 million now? :-D
Excelsior,
Ben
Subject: Re: Iron Man Part Deux
From: Rick Arthur
To: Ben Alpi
I see you.
I’m calling........
RICK
(Rick replies by phone and the conversation is not recorded. It is Jan. 23rd, 2007.)
Our post "Email #1: There Is No Tea" originated on 2/16/08 a whole year later. It is not hard to see where the ideas began to develop.
He was turned to steel. In the great magnetic field.
When he traveled time, For the future of mankind.
-Black Sabbath, Iron Man
When you have a good script you're almost in more trouble than when you have a terrible script.
-Robert Downey, Jr.
Gads! How time flies. Rest in peace Mr. Frazetta. Of course these were personal emails not meant to ever be seen by the public, but I'm not very kind of Robert Downey am I? Sometimes I really like being proven wrong! I think in the end I was more afraid of 'them' not utilizing Downey to his fullest and thus removing the soul from Tony. He ended up doing a superior job. Jon Favearu certainly exceeded my hopes although, I couldn't help feeling like they were kinda/sorta making it up as they went along (which I believe I read later that they did to an extent.) Interesting though how close our analysis is to a few of the concepts brought to the film. I think Iron Man may be responsible for keeping superhero films alive. I could be wrong, but I think it was the first Marvel Films productions and its success meant, in part, they could announce a sequel and the rest of the line of Avengers films. Helmets off to them!
ReplyDeleteReply. I think your comments were not meant to water down Downey as an actor. I took your remarks as meaning that he wasn't right for the role and his personal controversy might overshadow Tony Stark. It is clear reading this post how our styles of thinking gravitate toward dissecting and discussing film elements. Stars. Budget. Directors. Plot. Character. Motivation.
ReplyDeleteI still might like to see Benecio take a turn at Stark. I wouldn't have thought of him. I am sure that if our Cap discussion started anywhere then it was here. Certainly there were other influences along the way and your discussions with your brother Bob were important to getting us going. Post #52 and #53 deal with Hulk and Thor respectively. Enjoy what is to come. RICK
Mr. Rick: It was probably 10 years ago when we first chatted about the studio perspective related to stars. Namely, you pointed out that from their perspective stars are needed to limit the financial risk a film represents. The amount of money involved-- now reaching hundreds of millions-- does make a case to attach as many household names as possible to the billing. The choice of Robert Downey was actually a risk given his history, but a very savvy choice by the filmmakers. The amount he and the other actors were invested was also key-- it's palpable in the film and is one of the reasons it works so well. Jon Favreau, also perhaps not an obvious choice from a studio POV, and the other makers really brought it together. I don't think a stack of stars is needed for every film, but I can of course see the reasoning. And because they're they're stars doesn't mean they're somehow bad by default. There are many I'd love to work with, older and younger. Although, of course risk does have its rewards.
ReplyDelete